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  • Reply to: Mormon Homophobia: Up Close and Personal   15 years 9 months ago
    It would be interesting to know how many temple marriages by proxy were performed for black Mormons before the 1978 "revelation" further legitimized them as members. I suspect very few but I understand your theological point. As for the different degrees of heaven, right. But Mormons believe that achieving anything less than the "highest degree of glory" is a hell of its own. The "administering angels" that populate lessor heavens are the brunt of Mormon jokes. I guess to be more clear, a black Mormon prior to 1978 could hope to be (1) an angel in a lessor heaven who administers to white couples married in a temple or (2) the beneficiary of Mormon white guilt after their death. In essence, the Mormon concept of heaven and marriage excluded them.
  • Reply to: Mormon Homophobia: Up Close and Personal   15 years 9 months ago
    <blockquote>...but Mormonism is full of rules.</blockquote> That, plus all the intricate doctrines, divisions of heaven, elaborations of this, that and the other -- it's probably part of the attraction for a lot of converts. You'll never run out of fascinating new things to learn. ;-)
  • Reply to: Mormon Homophobia: Up Close and Personal   15 years 9 months ago
    Interesting point, but not quite correct. You're right that the priesthood prohibition also prevented black Mormons from being married in the temple, which is a prerequisite for entering the "Celestial Kingdom." However, there was a loophole. Remember, Mormons practice baptisms for the dead and other religious ordinances by proxy. It was therefore possible in theory for black Mormons to expect that they would get into the Celestial Kingdom, provided that someone performed the marriage by proxy for them after their death. I remember this scenario coming up in discussion once during a church meeting that I attended. And it's not just theory. I suspect that once the "Negro doctrine" was abolished, the Mormon church went ahead and conducted temple marriages by proxy for all of its black members who had died before they were able to take advantage of the new rules. Of course, this isn't a scenario that any self-respecting black person should have considered acceptable. It basically meant that they would have to join a church that treated them as second-class citizens, endure that discrimination patiently throughout their entire life, and then wait patiently in the afterlife until the priesthood ban was lifted so they could get their ordinances performed by someone else. The point, though is that the priesthood ban wasn't an absolute barrier to entry into the Celestial Kingdom. Here's another another minor point of clarification: Mormons don't regard the Celestial Kingdom as synonymous with "heaven." They believe that heaven contains three different kingdoms -- the Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial. Of those three, the Celestrial is the highest. However, the other kingdoms are still parts of "heaven," and just anyone can get in. Even murderers, thieves, fornicators and people who drink Mountain Dew can get into the lowest one. (I guess it's kind of like public housing, only with harp music.) Using this expanded definition of heaven, therefore, blacks certainly <i>could</i> get in and were almost guaranteed admission. According to Mormon doctrine, in fact, the only souls that <i>don't</i> get into heaven are those that actively and intentionally ally themselves with Satan. It feels silly to be discussing all these rules here, but Mormonism is full of rules. I remember discussions about whether it was okay to eat chocolate, to drink Coca-Cola, or to use wine in cooking. (Mormons aren't supposed to drink alcoholic beverages, but the alcohol boils off when you use it to cook, so some of the more daring members thought French cooking was therefore okay.)
  • Reply to: Mormon Homophobia: Up Close and Personal   15 years 9 months ago
    Kaliya Hamlin is quoted in the article as saying this, "I think what is going on with the blacklists -- that are directly targeting people in their private life is wrong. I think targeting specific religious institutions for protest is wrong. These people and these religious institutions are not propagating HATE they are just not agreeing that marriage can be between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. This is a cultural difference of opinion." What Kaliya and all the Mormons (whining about being held accountable for their actions) don't understand is that their working and supporting Prop 8 goes beyond a cultural difference of opinion. They actively worked to take rights away from a group of people. If my neighbor and his church worked on getting a city ordinance passed that didn't let German-Americans like me get married (because its against their rather hypothetically esoteric belief system), then he could expect me to boycott his church, his business, and use my Constitutional Rights to speak about about them, peacefully protest against them, and urge others to boycott/protest them. It's fine if you or your church don't want gays to marry - or feel German-Americans shouldn't or that Black people are inferior or Mexicans can't be saved or Catholicism is a cult - fine. That's your cultural difference of opinion. But you shouldn't be able to take that cultural difference of opinion to dictate to people not sharing your opinion that they can't marry or institute laws against Blacks, Mexicans, Catholics, or whomever else you don't like. The Mormon Church decided to interject themselves into a situation and now is soaking their collective magic underwear with crocodile tears that they might be held responsible for their actions. I just can't find any sympathy for them.
  • Reply to: Mormon Homophobia: Up Close and Personal   15 years 9 months ago
    <blockquote>The Mormon church still has lots of leverage and money. </blockquote> So do gays and their friends. We live in interesting times. :-)

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